Question about planted aquarium and fishless cycling

Hello all,
I have always wanted an aquarium but never wanted to try it unless I could afford a good sized tank. I was lucky enough to get a 46gl bowfront with stand and a aqua clear 70 filter given to me. I am planing to have a tropical planted fresh water tank. I started setting my tank up without really understanding the whole cycling process. The local pet store kids talked like I could set my tank up get it to temp and as long as my Ph, ammonia, nitrite, & nitrates were ok I could add fish slowly. Glad I discovered that I could do fishless cycling before I killed off fish. I have my tank set up and running, I had read that I needed to wait 1-2weeks after adding plants to add fish for a new tank so no fish yet. I started with 10lds of plant substrate mixed with about 5lbs of sand and then gravel over that. I added my plants of 2 Amozon sword, 1 hygrophila kompakt, 2 undulate, and 2 bunches of what I think is dawarf saggitaria. I am planing to ask the store to order me some Java moss, and maybe a green tiger lotus or anubias nana. I have my light on for my plants. Here is my question. Is it safe for my plants to do a fishless cycle?  If so will they also tolerate me increasing the water temp to 80 to speed the process up. I had also added Fritz Zyme (live nitrifying bacteria) about 4 days before I added my plants. I did that because I had read on another forum that one could transfer bacteria media from another astablised aquarium or an aquarium store maybe able to sell live bacteria to kick start the filtration process. I was expecting them to scrape something out of a filter but instead they gave me this bottle. I followed the directions on the amount to add. Was trying to adjust the heater at the same time so the water was around 80 for 2 days. Now it is 75. I didn't add the light until I added the plants. I'm guessing, from what I have since read, that the bottled bacteria have probably died off if there was really any to start with. Has anyone used this brand?  Should I add more of it when I start adding ammonia or should I find the brand given in the artical I read on this site?

Hi GreenAmy, welcome to the forum ！

I am gladly you are doing fishless cycling as it is the safest way to get started. From my own experience, it is ok to add plants before a fishless cycling as long as you do not overdose ammonia during the cycle. Too much ammonia can hurt the plants even though normally the plants use ammonia for food. The exact concentration of ammonia can be tolerated by the plants is not very clear and it can be vary for different plant species. In general, 2～3ppm ammonia should be safe for the plants. Water temperature of 80F is well accepted by most aquarium plants.

By the way, make sure you do not leave the lights on for more than 11-12 hours a day. Too much light can cause an algea boom. Use an automatic timer can be handy.

I have not used the live bacteria product you mentioned. So I can't comment on it. Usually the proven working live bacteria products are all rebranded product of the same invention from Dr. Tim's One and Only. It includes but not limited to Tetra SafeStart, biospira, etc. Tetra SafeStart worked well for me as a jump start for the cycle.

I suggest you just go with plants but keep ammonia concentration low. It would be easy if you use a pure ammonia product.

If I missed any question or if you are still unclear about some answers, feel free to ask any time. ? Good luck with your new aquarium.

Thanks for the quick responses. I plan to get started today.

Is it possible that my tank cycled with just plant substrate and Fritz Zyme, live nitrifying bacteria for 10days then I added plants and its been another 3 days. I do have a used filter with used filter sponge but I think it had pretty well dried out and I rinsed it well before installing. This is why I ask. I filled my tank with my tap water, which is from a well, so no chlorine and no water softener. I took my tap water into the pet store to have it tested before I filled my tank. Findings were pH-7.4, no ammonia, nitrites, or nitrates. I picked up a API Freshwater Master test kit and before adding ammonia this evening to start my fishless cycle I decided to check the tank water. Findings were: pH-8.2, ammonia-0, nitrite-0, nitrate- 40ppm. I even double checked the pH & nitrate.
I went ahead and started adding the ammonia (Z Force, 4%) I got from Packs. I added 6ml of the ammonia and think I have it up to 2ppm. I also went ahead and added the rest of the Fritz Zyme since I read on this site that once the bottle was opened the bacteria wouldn't live. I figured why not.
Should I do anything to bring my pH down yet or just wait to see what happens with my ammonia and other levels? The fish I planed to get required pH of 6-7. If I have cycled and my pH is 8.2 I might want to reconsider the type of fish. I don't want to constantly fight to maintain the pH.

From the sound of it, the live bacteria product you used must have quickly converted all of the ammonia to nitrate. I hope they have the correct type of live bacteria. Because there are bogus products out there with land based bacteria which will make it look like the tank is cycled but they eventually drown in the water after a few weeks and the cycle dies with them. If the product has the right type of bacteria, then your aquarium is already cycled.


One thing you need to know, we should not mess with water PH. Let it be. The only thing you could do is to do partial water change. It is also weird that your water PH actually had gone up. Usually the water PH goes down as more nitrate is produced from ammonia. Then again, you have well water so it must have a lot of minerals in it to have strong buffer against PH swing.

Whatever you do, do (not) use any chemical product to change the PH. It will only cause problem.

Fish and plants can get used to the PH if given time. Sudden change can kill them.

This morning, approximately 9 hours after bringing the ammonia level up to 2ppm, I checked my levels and findings were: ammonia 1, nitrite 0.25, & nitrate 80. This evening, approximately 20 hours after ammonia added, findings were ammonia 0.25, nitrite 0.50, and nitrate 80. The pH has remained at 8.2.
I added more ammonia to bring tank to 2ppm again. Increased temp to 80 degrees F. I will see what it does tomorrow and then decide if I want to do a partial water exchange.

Thor,

I need your input. This morning approxametley 8 hours after the last ammonia add (up to 2ppm) the ammonia level had only dropped to 1 and the nitrite jumped way up to 5. This evening, 19 hours after adding ammonia findings were pH- 8, NH3- 0, NO2- 2, & NO3- 80.
Can I keep adding a little ammonia dailey and wait to do a water exchange this weekend? Or would I be better off doing one now? Then after water exchange, if still adding ammonia and I check the leveles another time or two and find the ammonia and nitrite are both 0 with nitrate 40 or less I should be able to add fish, right?

Hi GreenAmy,
You do not need to check the readings too frequently. Once every 24 hours is enough, and then add more ammonia accordingly. Do not expect ammonia to drop significant amount within a few hours. Even with live bacteria product, it is unusual to see an aquarium instantly cycled. So there has to be some trace of ammonia even by the end of every 24 hours. It is also normal to see nitrite before the aquarium is fully cycled.

Your goal is to be able to add minimal 2ppm ammonia and see all of it being converted to nitrate at the end of 24 hours. So as long as the ammonia is decreasing, and nitrate is increasing, you should keep adding ammonia back to minimal 2ppm every 24 hours. Partial water change is not needed until you see large PH drop to indicate water buffer is gone and needs to be restored. Otherwise too low PH might slow down or even stall the cycling process since the bacteria do not like too acidic water.

Thanks for your help! I am confident my tank has cycled with it being able to go from ammonia level of 2ppm to 0 within 24 hours and 0 nitrites. Nitrate levels were 80ppm and pH still at 8.2. So I did a 50% water change then another 30% water change to get to nitrate level of 20ppm my pH only dropped to 8 though. I am adding fish today they are floating now. I plan to slowley acclimate them to my tank water as I read in "Why did fish die so fast? (Common beginner mistakes)".
I am starting with 2 male guppies, 4 female guppies, 5 zebra danios, and 2 shrimp. I originally planned to start with just 6 fish but that was before I did fishless cycling. I am still a little nervous about this number of fish to start with so I plan to monitor the water quality closely. Wish me luck.

I am gladly to be able to help.
Usually I would continue to add ammonia for extra a day or two to make sure the aquarium can covert all of the ammonia to nitrate and to give the bacteria colony time to stabilize itself. A large percentage water change is needed to remove the excessive nitrate and to restore the water buffer. I'd do a 70% water change, or even do it twice in a row. Just to make sure the filter media stay wet the whole time.

By the way, have you already added the fish? Zebra Danios are known nippers. Guppies' long fin will make perfect target for them to nip on. Guppies are also slow moving fish, while Zebra Danios will zip around the tank. I wouldn't recommend to have them in the same aquarium as any slow moving, long fin fish species. Even if the Zebra Danios somehow leave the Guppy alone, they will definitely grab the food before guppy can even get there.

I would also test the water at least once a day to make sure everything is alright. Feed fish lightly will also minimize the amount of ammonia produced in the system. Once a day is enough with as much as they can finish all under a minute.

Good luck with your new aquarium! Please sure some photos when you are all set.

Rookie mistake I guess. Maybe, an excuse to get a second tank ?. Aqadvisor warned against other fish fin nipping guppies but not the Danios. Yes they went in the tank together last night. So far no nipping. I did notice the Danios getting to the food first. That lead me to put food in on each ends of the aquarium. Noticed the Danios getting to the food on top and the guppies get the food as it starts to sink.
Water peramitors were good this morning, l will check daily as recommend.

Don't start a second tank just yet. It means twice the time/effort to spend on maintenance. You need to have the first aquarium for a few months to see how you like it first. While an established aquarium need minimal maintenance, you still need to do partial water change once a week. Some people might get tried of it after a while and skip on the recommended maintenance. Adding a second aquarium now will double the work and might accelerate the boredom (if) somehow you develop it.

If you add a second fish tank, might as well use it as a hospital/quarantine tank first. So it can be a smaller fish tank, and you can use it to quarantine any new fish you plan to add to your main aquarium. It is highly recommended after you have a well established aquarium, since it is easy to infect the whole tank if any new fish comes with diseases and parasites.

Guppies are also known for breeding really fast. They are live bearers (give birth directly to small fish fry). You definitely need some other fish in the same tank to control their population. Otherwise you might have your aquarium overcrowded before you know it.

Zebra Danios do need large tank since they are very active fish. They like to chase each other around in high speed.

By the way, what other plans do you have for adding new fish?

Well, I am a little sad. I woke up this morning to find my beautiful yellow male guppy and a pretty little yellow and red guppy dead. PH is back to 8.2, ammonia is 0.25, nitrite 0, & nitrate is 40. Is the ammonia high enough to have caused their death?
I was already thinking about a quarantine tank for when I am ready to add fish.
To answer you question about other fish, I was thinking 6 neon tetras, 4 panda Cory, and maybe 2 honey gourami. The kids really want me to get some glofish as well. But at this point I just need my current fish to survive. Thinking a water exchange is in order. I do believe 2 of my female guppies that are left are pregnant. I doubt I have enough plants for them to survive at this point.

Decided against the panda Cory because of my alkaline water and gravel. Got any suggestions for a bottom dweller algae eater that likes alkaline water?

Remainder of my fish seem to be doing well after 30% water exchange. That wasn't as bad as I thought it would be with fish in the tank. The remainder 4 guppies seem to be doing good, they are actually getting to the food before the zebra danios now. The Danios sure do like to chase each other around. Every once in a while one will chase one of the guppies but doesn't last but a second or two then they are off in another direction.

While Panda corydoras might be one of the most fragile corydoras catfish around, most corydoras species will do fine in your water. My tap water has a PH of 8.0, and my Peppered Corydoras catfish have no problem with it while most sources say they prefer 7.0 or lower PH. It just proves a lot of fish species can adapt to different water PH easily as long as it is not too extreme. Your PH of 8.2 isn't that far from my 8.0.

Although there is one thing about the Peppered Corydoras, they aren't that pretty. So look around for better looking corydoras if you wish to have something as eye candy.

Check this page out for more species of cory catfish.
http://www.liveaquaria.com/product/aquar...c=830+1161
Keep in mind you need minimal 5~6 for a school. Or they will be shy and hide most of the time.

As for the potential nipping problem, if you see damaged fin on guppies, then it is most likely the work of Zebra Danios. They might not be nippy until they are nippy. Once they get started on nipping around, especially after there are already some damaged fins, they will more likely to nip on the damaged fin continuously. So I'd keep eyes on them, and keep watching for damaged fins on guppies.

Thanks for your input. I am finding that there is a lot of conflicting information out there. The source I was looking at stated at least 3- 4 corys, another source said 6. With the guppies two sources stated danios made good tank mates. What is your preferred source for such things as these?

So frustrated right now. I had another guppy dead last night and this morning a zebra danio. Last night I thought it must be the danios stressing the guppies out. The first 2 didn't seem to have any damage to their fins but the 3rd last night had most of her tail fin gone. But now a danio dead? It had a lot of red in the gil area and abdomen. There is one danio that is relentless about chasing the others.
Do you think it's the danios aggressive behavior causing the other fish to dye or my water? Findings today pH steady at 8.2, ammonia maybe 0.25 (I think I see a tent of green my kids say no it's just yellow), nitrites 0, nitrates 20-40 (maybe a little darker than the 20 but not as dark as the 40). Can an ammonia level of 0.25 be killing my fish? When I found the first two guppies dead it was maybe up to 0.5. I did a 30% water exchange at that time and it was enough to bring it back down to 0.

Zebra Danios are hardy fish. They are known to be able to live in polluted water for a while. Some people even use them to cycle the new aquariums and they can usually live for quite a while even there is ammonia in the water. So if they died so quickly, it is unlikely the low level of ammonia is the main cause while it can definitely contribute to the death.

Double check your readings on ammonia and nitrite. It is the best to keep ammonia at 0ppm. If there is indeed ammonia, do a 50% water change to lower it.

There are also other things to check on. For example, the water temperature. I'd keep it at 76~80F. Use a thermometer to take the reading instead of trusting the heater's setting.

Aggression can cause deaths. The fish with most of its fin gone should be the result of attacking. Stress sometimes can weaken fish's immune system and make them easily catching illness. Fast moving fish like Zebra Danio can stress out the slower fish like guppies.

When everything looks fine, including the readings, no overfeeding, and no aggression. Then the problem can be the weak fish. Some fish stores sell low quality fish raised on fish farms with low standards. Some fish farms even use a lot of antibiotics in the water to prevent the fish from dying in masses. Once these fish no longer receive antibiotics, they can die easily to diseases.

And finally, don't stress out over the losing of fish. Anyone who had kept fish for long enough must have experienced it. We were all beginners once, and many of us had to learn everything from trial and error etc. Even in perfect conditions, fish can die from time to time.

Took water into the pet store to have them double check my findings. They said if there is any ammonia its no more that 0.25, nitrite 0, nitrate 40 or less, pH 8.2 or higher. Was down to 3 zebra danios and two guppies last night after loosing another zebra and female guppy. Decided to take the zebra danios I had back to the pet store. The one just would not quite harassing the other fish. I have a male guppy and a female left. Cleaned my tank today and did a 50% water exchange. Also got a commen pleco to help keep the alge down. My 8 year old son and I was trying to find the male guppie, female had been chasing him away some today, when my son says, "Mom there's a baby fish!" I was like your crazy there aren't any babies in there. As I kept trying to find the male guppy. I was afraid it was dead and wanted to get it out if so. I moved a rock then my drift wood and l saw the baby my son had seen. I have several fry hanging out and hiding in my pants and around the drift wood. They are so cute. I wonder if I vacuumed any of them up when I was cleaning the tank earlier. I don't think I did. Hope one or two make it!

Common Plecostomus? It will be too big even for your tank. They can reach up to 18 inches in length when they are full grown. Tank size will not limit their growth, and they will outgrow your tank. If you can't get a bigger tank by then, your tank will be overstocked from just this one Pleco.

Guppies will keep multiplying quickly if you do not have other fish to keep their population down. Live bearer will always have this problem. By the way, usually it is said to need 2~3 female guppies for every 1 male since the male will keep chasing the females and stress them out.

Have you checked your water temperature?
By the way, do you have sufficient water surface movement? Either from the filter or from the air pump. When the water temperature is too high, there is not enough oxygen in the water. Surface water movement is required to promote gas exchange between the water and the atmosphere in order to give the fish enough oxygen to breath with.

Water temperature with a thermometer is 74. I was planning to get another female guppy but wanted to see if these two live first. Right now the female has been doing most of the chasing. She actually still looks pregnant. Have a aquclear 70 filter. Was just wondering if I needed to get something else to add oxygen. I had not researched the pleco cause I see them in so many aquariums and that was what the pet store guy recommended. When will I learn not to listen to them?

Is the female guppy chasing the male? Are you sure it's a female? Usually it is the male chasing the female.

Power filter such as Aquaclear should produce enough surface water movement if the water drops a good distance before hitting the surface.

The water temperature is a little low in my opinion. I'd have it set at no less than 76F (I prefer 78~80F), but I doubt it is the main cause of the deaths.

Sometimes even when you do everything right, fish might still die due to they are weak (low quality fish) to begin with. Just make sure you still do everything right, and things will be stabilized after a while. By the way, where did you buy your fish from?

I turned the temp up to 78 after my last post when I realized you had suggested warmer. Got the fish from Pets Way, I believe it's a chain store.
The fish doing the chasing is bigger than the male and other female, has a triangular anal fin, is gray with faint tail fin colors, has a very rounded belly with a gravid spot. The other female is actually bright hello with yello and read tail fin (unusual colors for a female I thought), has a triangular anal fin, and a gravid spot. The male has a very bright multi color tail and a long thin anal fin.
My water since the last exchange has been ammonia 0, nitrites 0, & nitrates 20. I removed a plant at the last water exchange that I don't believe was getting enough light. It's leaves were falling off when it was touched.
I will probably wait until the fry are a little bigger before adding more fish. I have only seen 4 at a time but I want to make sure before adding more fish. I know I could add fish that will help keep the population down but I would like one or two of these little cuties to live for my kids.

How are the rest of your fish?

Chain stores usually sell low quality fish. I have learned it the hard way too. My first batch of fish were of low quality, and most of them died to diseases and parasites (ick, gill fluke, mouth rot, etc.) showing up just after a few days after I got them. Some of them were just weak and drop dead for no visible illness.

When a problem occurs, there might not be any fix specialized for it. Sometimes the best thing you can do is to provide fish the excellent water quality and high quality food. Also remember do not overfeed. Most problems should be gone.

The highest quality fish I got were from Dr Frost and Smith's http://www.liveaquaria.com
They are more expensive, but their fish are so healthy and totally worth it.

For your plants, it needs more than just regular aquarium lights. I use T5HO lights on timer for 10 hours a day for my plants. You also need some nutrients for plants to do well. Special plant substrate and some aquarium plant tabs are used in my case. I also need to admit that having live plants mean a lot more trouble to run an aquarium, but totally worth it if you are good at "gardening".

Using a Aqua-Glo T8 30watt, 900 lumen, 36in bulb. Thinking I need to upgrade.
Lost my male guppie at the beginning of last week. The female that was chasing him was also chasing the new female I added but she has finally calmed down and the 2 are getting along great now. A couple of the little fry are getting brave and swimming all over the aquarium. My pleco seems to be doing good. I see what you mean about a lot of waste. He is just a little guy I hate to see how much he produces as he gets big. My shrimp is doing good as well. I must have acquired snails along with my plants. I have several small ones.
Before doing the weekly water exchange my water peramitors were great. 0 ammonia & nitrites and 20 for Nitrates.