Alot of people have this picture of a puppy mill that they get from the animal sites..sickly pups, horrid conditions, half starved dogs in cages with dead pups. Those are the extreme cases that get busted. There are mills operating at minimum level as far as health wise, feeding and vetting. While most of their "stock" have never seen the light of day, they are fed and vetted. These are the ones the law can't touch because they are doing everything just above board. I don't believe in breeding your pet quality dog with the neighbors for that one litter of cute pups..akc or not, it's no better then a mill pumping out less then quality animals.
I believe a reputable breeder is one who has researched the breed, knows the history and possible genetic issues that come with it and are willing to give up there whole breeding program if they find their lines less then desirable for the breed. These people do it because they love it, and want to perserve a great breed to be admired and enjoyed for generations to come. They don't believe in mixing their beloved breed with another to meet the demand for a new fad puppy, they had solid ethics, and would do everything it takes to keep their lines pure and clean. JMHO
03-10-2012, 03:34 AM, (This post was last modified: 03-10-2012, 03:44 AM by OriJas.)
Pretty much the same as what Dakota has said. I don't believe in all puppymills being this mess of destruction. However, I still don't think highly of them myself. Puppymills treat it as a business, they usually have several dogs, purebred or not and they churn out litters at almost every available opportunity. They usually don't take the time to get all the necessary testing done, the background lines and checks, mainly because they're in it for business and profit so as long as puppies are being produced, being sold and being bred, they don't worry about the finer details. Puppymills usually don't have show quality, they don't take the time to even show their dogs, and if they do it's probably not via conformation or any AKC registered events, or luckily if they do choose one or two for that, it's only for the title so they can raise prices. I would be surprised even, if there was a puppymill who have all their dogs and breeding dogs CERF, OFA, etc approved. I somehow doubt it.
Reputable breeders don't breed all the time, they also usually don't have more than one litter on the ground, and they usually only do it once a year. At least from what I know around here, reputables don't even plan a litter before there's a long waiting list. I also find that they are extremely selective where their puppies go, and quite a few breeders that I know will strongly state that they couldn't give two hoots about what the purchaser wants, they look out for the best of the best interests for the puppy and the puppies only. Which personally, I find highly respectable. And then some.
In what you stated in the other thread, BW. I do agree that the shelter and rescue need all the help they can get. But I can understand being someone who was diligent in searching for my two, and others opting for reputable breeder pups. I like knowing where my puppies came from and knowing that they cared enough to find the right homes for Jasmine and Ori, I like knowing their background histories, the fact that everything was done in order to make sure they were healthy, even though it was unfortunate that Ori still developed HD. Ori is also one of the last pups from his mother's last litters, as she was killed by a neighbor before she had one more before retirement. Which I guess is a complete blessing that she didn't, however Ori is the only known HD case in their entire experience.
But I know that if it ever came down to it, I would have nothing against adopting or rescuing. I just opted to choose where my pups came from, or at least choosing to know where they came from and knowing that I had lower risk in raising a pup that I knew was bred respectively. I just don't find puppy mills OR BYBs respectful at all. I respect those who do it for the love and care of the breed, and who do everything in their power to improve it, not doing it for the money they hope to make.
Edit: I forgot to add also - a reputable breeder to me, isn't just someone with dogs with titles or AKC (or in local case, ANKC) registration either. There's a lot more involved and they'd have to prove themselves to earn my stamp of approval. Clearances, CERF, OFA, facility visit, and overall care. I'm surprise Ori and Jasmine's breeder didn't think me to be some sort of weird nosy person as I practically asked for everything but their personal birth certificates. But, when the Guide Dogs Association has them on their "go to" map and recommendations and the trainers even invest in several puppies each for themselves...well, I get convinced kind of quickly. Lol. I think they probably just sent me there as a last resort before I asked to move in to monitor them...
03-10-2012, 04:33 AM, (This post was last modified: 03-27-2012, 05:26 AM by bw.)
To both Dakota and OriJas. We are on the same page. So many people think all puppy mills are the filthy disease ridden messes you see advertised in the media. Puppy mills/back yard breeders can have great looking websites. A big tip off that you are dealing with that sort is they WILL sell on line. A reputable breeder will not.
OriJas, I think you know I am in complete agreement that if a person wants to know their dogs background a reputable breeder is the way to go. I know some people feel as you do and want to know. Or they want to show dogs, again, have to use a reputable breeder. Now let me kick this soapbox back under the table and see what else is new on here since I last visited.
03-10-2012, 05:05 AM, (This post was last modified: 03-10-2012, 05:08 AM by OriJas.)
Lol. I don't think you're on a soapbox. In fact, I hope a lot of people who "cruise" the site and don't join can see this.
I'm reminded of a story locally that was sent through an organisation on FB (One fighting for a new law against puppymills and BYBs) where just last month, a particular "facility" that had 246 dogs on their properties that were seized, they were charged and omitted from owning ANY dogs for at least 2 years.
Another here (from the same organisation) which this one is scary:
The problem with them though, they had TWO properties. One was where they did the actual breeding, the other was a "cover". No pens in sight, wide open spaces were the dogs could supposedly run. Problem there was, when people came to visit the facility, they moved the dogs TO the "viewing" property and gave buyers absolutely NO clue as to where the real "action" was taking place. It's awful. There's a link to their website (the farm) but I will not post it in fear that some here might hope to go "puppy shopping" there. Sadly, those scumbags are still operating and apparently earn $20,000 per WEEK! They ship overseas and to pet stores as well. Don't even get me started on that fact they require you to pay a deposit before you even hold the pup you wish to make a decision for. Ugh.
When the link was first posted, their front page writer hadn't even spelled "purebred" correctly, they had it as "purebread". How ridiculous can you get to NOT notice that before you go and puppy a puppy from these morons? Sadly, they're the type that would get their basic vet care, but screw everything else. But the big, fresh and green plot of land they advertise, you'd think it was puppy paradise and it's not even where they operate out of!
Ah, OriJas, it happens way too often!! I wish people would go through the National Breed Clubs to find their breeders because, sadly, too many do not know what to look for. I wish people would educate themselves on this stuff. It's not that hard, the info is out there. It would have me shaking my head in disbelief when I would hear someone say, "I got my (pick a designer dog) from a good breeder." My first thought was, Ah, no you didn't. Then their are the ones that think "teacup (any dog)" is a real breed because they can find it on the internet. You can find bugger sandwich on the internet too, doesn't mean they are real food. Sorry for the gross analogy.
03-10-2012, 05:33 AM, (This post was last modified: 03-10-2012, 05:35 AM by Ram.)
People want to make profit. Money to them is more important than some animals' lives. They basically don't give a damn about it. We live in a society where everything needs to be mass produced to make maximum profit. Unfortunately, animals come out of mass production are not the same.
Lol. That's okay, I haven't a clue what a bugger sandwich is, and I don't think I'll google it. The idea that it's an actual food is a better image for my delicate ladylike sensibilities.
I almost caused a scene in my vet office the other week. While waiting for Ori's appointment for his booster, there was a woman around my age who was carrying in this tiny little black fuzzy puppy in her arms. Only 8 weeks old, but I was in the midst of a large panic attack (I'm getting over severe agoraphobia and it was a tough trip) and so I clung to the confidence to ask her about it. When I asked what breed she was, she replied with "Schnoodle". I was speechless for a second and just replied with "aww, she's adorable." In my head I was just...you know, I'm not even gonna. Amusingly enough, I thought of Y!As.
Afterward though, on the trip back home, my parents caught every single word of my rage rant about it. The sad thing is here, it's not all that easier to find the information. I've had to be the voice of reason to most people around here. My mother certainly doesn't like it as a few of her friends are BYBs and she feels the need to defend their actions. But oh well, I just call it like I see it. Except with strangers in vet clinics...
However, there's a community gathering at my local council around the corner later this month, I've been thinking of what I might be able to contribute with about it. Maybe offering to start a neighborhood awareness campaign or something. Maybe I'll do another thread about that though. It's a pity I'm not a well-experienced trainer, I'd offer free training classes at the center as well as an info-drive.
03-10-2012, 07:05 AM, (This post was last modified: 03-10-2012, 08:15 AM by bw.)
Ram8349, too sadly true.
OriJas, of course you thought of "that other place". That is what they have there. I actually had someone once tell me their schnoodle was a pure breed. Being the sensitive soul that I am, I laughed right out loud and said,"purebred mutt!"
Will catch you all later I must get some work done.
Here's a devastating way to put it. I've watched this two minute video over and over again and I'm still wondering why people are encouraging the sale of designer breeds or teacup puppies.
I've read this article about teacup puppies and how an owner had gone to the extent of massaging the potty organ in order for the puppy to relieve himself due to having an underdeveloped body. It's just plain awful.
And then you see how the hurt/ defective puppies in a litter are made into breeders just for the sake of profit. It's just sad.
Puppy mills and reputable breeders are not the same thing. Reputable breeders usually have a reputation that is known amongst other breeders and dog owners. They often belong to organizations that certifies them or recommend them. If you are looking for a breeder who is legitimate and reputable, you can usually research them and find information about their litters. People will tell you about them. Their dogs are usually of healthy and good examples of their breed. A reputable breeder cares about the animals they breed. I would not refer to a reputable breeder as a puppy mill.
Puppy Mills are designed for one thing only to sell dogs to make a profit. They hid from the law and work in the shadows. The conditions are deplorable. The dogs that come from their facilities usually have genetic diseases, chronic illness, or emotional problems. They do not breed for health of the animals. They breed for the money they can make. If the female dies in the process, they don't care. If the puppies are sickly, they hide it . They only need the maximum amount of litters born so they can turn a profit.
I would never equate puppy mills driven by profit to breeders who sell dogs but do it in a caring way. The two should not even be compared.
This really is a hot topic issue for me. I hate "breeding" of all types. Most dog breeders breed their dogs to some sort of "standards" usually AKC. This does not mean it is good for the dog’s health. A good example of this is the Rhodesian ridgeback, the ridgeback is actually a genetic flaw in the dog, yet many of those born without the ridgeback are simply disposed of.
I bought my dog, Tasha 2.0, off the internet. I spoke to the owner who lied to me. Tasha (1) my first American Cocker Spaniel who was my service animal, was AKC from great champion stock who's owner I've known for years, was healthy throughout her whole life. She was a trained service animal who saved my life on more than one occasion. I was able to travel the world with her alongside me. We especially enjoyed our Disney vacations together. When she crossed the rainbow bridge I was devastated. Being a senior and disabled on a fixed income I could not afford $20,000 to spend on a trained service animal. So I thought I found an AKC Cocker Spaniel who I could have trained to assist me. What I got was a dog who after just 2 months of owning her showed signs of knee dysplasia.
I was devastated over this, if she could not climb stairs she could not be my service animal. Tasha 2.0 is still with me, like me we both have medical issues, I’ve come to terms with the fact that we can’t do everything that I want, but I love her as she is and she loves me. You can check out her full story at http://Tashas-Health.com be sure to check out her documents and pedigree, it’s really interesting. Yes she comes from Missouri.
Why can’t people breed dogs to improve the health of the breed, and not how the dog looks? I believe all breeders should have to be certified, with a course on basic genetics. Yes there are some good breeders out there that produce good looking dogs, but are they are not doing it to improve the breed they usually do it for the money. To me, if you have more than 5 breeding females you are a commercial breeder. Breed quality, not quantity!
I think Dakota Dog said it best. A lot of these puppy mills are in terrible conditions and each dog is bred so much. It's sad and reputable breeders take the necessary precautions to make sure the dogs and pups are properly taken care of.
These puppy mills are terrible and should be shut down.
