It seems to me every were I go I hear about how pit bulls are aggressive and violent animals. But all the pit bulls I have ever had, or encountered have been the biggest baby's. I currently have a pit bull that is my service dog (I have epilepsy)and sleeps at my 2 month old sons crib every night. He has never attacked anyone or even growled at anything. He plays with my kids and will lick you to no end. Many of my friends have pit bulls that are the same way. I work with all breeds of dogs being a trainer so I come across many different types of families and come in at various times in the animals life and length of time with their owners. What I have witnessed over the years is that any dog can be a violent dog if it is raised to be. I have worked with dogs of all sizes and the most violent dog I came in contact with was a miniature daschound I thought was going to chew my foot off, and what I discovered after only a few hours of working with the owner and the dog, is that the owner was violent toward the dog, and not very friendly toward other people either. I discovered this with many different dogs and families. Coming back to my dog JoJo, I obtained him threw a rescue. He was badly abused and starved, I believe he was being trained to fight. When I got him he was very skinny, nervous, and skittish. The people at the rescue wanted to put him down thinking he could not be rehabilitated. I took him in order to show that they were wrong and all he needed was a good home and love. I have had JoJo for 2 years now and as I stated before he has become my service dog. He is healthy and very happy and we have never had an incident with him. He has become a beloved member of our family and is loved by all of our neighbors as well. So my question for you is do you believe that dogs are only as violent as you teach them to be?
I think that the majority of vicious dogs are trained by their owners to be so or have been beaten and abused so are just not trusting of people. I have had many friends with large dogs,, pitbull, rotweilers, chows, ect that are perfectly loving family members. My daughter has a little 25lb rat terrier that is the terror of the neighborhood. He is loving to his family members, but anyone else he barks his head off at and would just as soon snap and nip at them as anything else.
I would say violent owner. Dogs are like people, too. If they grow up in an environment where all they know is violence and abuse, then they will respond the same way. For instance, pitbulls are stereotyped as violent. I beg to disagree though. We have a pitbull named Sheena, and she is the sweetest dog ever. She hasn't bitten anyone since she came here, and she doesn't fight with other dogs. She even sleeps beside my cats! It's also funny when she shares her food with my father's chickens.
This is such a mixed subject... in my opinion I truly think when a dog acts out and attacks it can be both the owners fault and the dogs fault as well. You have to take nto consideration if the dog was provoked as well.
From my experience with pit bulls we have never had any issues with them being aggressive. My brother only has pits and they are babies!! So sweet and kind and actually love being with my children.
My parents now have a pit and he is the exact same way. Play with the kids and just loves on everyone. Has never bitten or been aggressive towards anyone. I think sadly, pit bulls have gotten a very bad wrap. When you hear such terrible things in the news people tend to think it is just the breed and all are bad and that is simply not the case.
I would say not necessarily violent owners as ignorant owners - and this results in all sorts of problems not just the headline causing viciousness.
I regularly see two types of ignorance that result in problem aggression - the first is failing to understand dog society and how a dog thinks it fits in to a group. The second is the idea that a dog needs to be trained to guard, which especially causes problems with some of the specifically bred "guard" breeds.
The first becomes a problem when either through natural bolshiness or a feeling of insecurity a dog feels it is either the alpha animal or driven to take on alpha roles such as protecting the pack. These are the situations where you have a "loved pet who never did anything like that before" bites a family member "for no obvious reason". The real story will be that the dog has been giving indications for months that this is going to happen because it thinks it is alpha and nobody has responded to the indications and put the dog firmly at the bottom of the pack, and as far as the dog is concerned a subordinate animal sitting on the alphas couch is a very obvious reason. Either that or a dog feels its alpha is too weak and it must take over alpha roles without becoming alpha and you then end up with a nervous animal that is likely to bark and snap at strangers visiting the home.
The second can be a real problem with the likes of Rottweilers, Dobies, GSD, Schnauzers etc when someone goes out and gets a puppy specifically to become a "guard dog" and finds that the puppy is happy and playful and loves everyone and does not so much as try to object to someone taking its toys even. They make the mistake of thinking that in order for such a dog to guard it needs to be taught - and they set about teaching the puppy to growl at someone taking its toy, encourage it to bark and run at visitors etc. Then some when between 9 and 18 months the natural breed instincts kick in - and you have an owner with an animal they cannot control that is downright dangerous.
If people spent some time doing research and learned to understand dogs a bit better before getting one there would be a lot less problems. I know there is a problem with some people teaching the animals to be violent deliberately but I have seen far more problems caused by just ignorance.
I think that dog breeds are naturally adapted to do certain things, and that inherant quality will come out in almost any breed of dog. If they are a sheep or cattle dog, they will often heard the other pets, and even small children around. I had a tiny Queensland Blue Heeler that would run behind my Great Dane, and snap at his heels if he lagged behind when I was out riding my bike and the dogs were following along wirh me. At first, I couldn't imagine why Caesar would jump and yelp every so often, but thought he must have hurt his foot on a rock or something.
When It continued; I watched him closely to see what was going on, saw him lag behind, and Merle nipped him on the heel and made him jump to catch up again.
So, I think it is partly the training that can make a dog dangerous, but if they do become agressive then the natural inclinations will take over, making any kind of a bull dog very dangerous.
The problem with Pitt Bulls and Pitt mixes is usually the owner, everyone is correct in that assumption. To own a breed, any breed, you need to be knowledgable about the breed and take on the responsibility of training your breed of choice.
People who raise fighting dogs or bet on pit fights, know that the tenacity of the breed, coupled with an extremely powerful jaw lock make these animals very popular in underground arenas. When I was Kennel Master at a Florida Animal Shelter, fighting dogs were, sadly, euthanized on an almost daily basis.
These dogs have a bad reputation, much like Rottweilers, or Dobermans. The Cane Corso breed has been added to the list lately as well. I have owned Rottweilers and Dobermans in the past. Would I own a Pit Bull? Not on your life.
And here's why: A pitt bull is a mixed breed dog that has any type of bull dog breed in the genetics. This can be Dogo Argentino, Cane Corso, Staffordshire, Presa Canario, the list goes on and on.
It can be a volatile mix; you don't know what you're working with. And yes,I do believe in the power of responsible dog ownership and raising an animal with kindness as well as discipline. But the breeding of Rottweilers and Dobermans is more established. I knew more of what I was getting when it came to genetic make-up and there were certain bloodlines I stayed away from. With a Pitt, you don't know what you're getting.
Still though, this isn't a viable argument when it comes to all the families who own Pitts and love them wholeheartedly.And many people will say they've seen other dogs far more vicious and aggressive then their Pitts(smaller dogs are usually more of a bite risk).
The problem is no one is ever sure of a dog's "triggers" especially shelter dogs. And when a Pitt does bite and attack, the jaw lock makes them a very formidable dog. And while a smaller dog may bite, the end result can usually be dealt with. The worst case scenario is usually a trip to the ER and some stitches. Not so with a Pitt Bull.
It is a complex problem - the fact is that the type of owner most likely to produce (deliberately or accidentally) aggressive responses in any type of dog are more likely to go for certain breeds - because of their reputation deserved or otherwise. This compounds the problem of putting dogs that have the probability of aggressive responses in the hands of people that are probably going to provoke an aggressive response.
I still believe over all owners are more of a problem than the actual dogs. While there are bad blood lines in some breeds and mixing breeds can make things worse these account for a very small number of animals - meanwhile bad owners get dogs without the problem bloodline to become problems - dogs that if in other hands would never have been a problem. I think it terribly short sighted of authorities to focus on breed and dog type - they would reduce aggression far more effectively if they focused on owner type.
I actually think there is some of both at play here. It is very true that the people who want more of an agressive dog will usually get a dog such as a Pitt Bull.
I believe that most of the dogs that have gotten loose and attacked innocent children or adults, are usually ones that came from this kind of an owner.
The Pitt Bulls that are raised in a friendly family environment are not nearly as apt to just go out and attack some stranger walking by.
However, the natural tendencies of this breed of dog ( as Rebecca mentioned), do make it much more dangerous when it does attack someone.
One of the most likely dogs to bite indiscriminately is the tiny Chichuahua; but even when they do bite, they don't have the ability to do the kind of damage that a bulldog breed can do.
Also, dogs that are perfectly friendly when the owners are home, may be a very different dog when the owner is gone and the dog is left "on guard" of the home.
(10-21-2014, 01:35 PM)Happyflowerlady Wrote: I actually think there is some of both at play here. It is very true that the people who want more of an agressive dog will usually get a dog such as a Pitt Bull.
I believe that most of the dogs that have gotten loose and attacked innocent children or adults, are usually ones that came from this kind of an owner.
The Pitt Bulls that are raised in a friendly family environment are not nearly as apt to just go out and attack some stranger walking by.
However, the natural tendencies of this breed of dog ( as Rebecca mentioned), do make it much more dangerous when it does attack someone.
One of the most likely dogs to bite indiscriminately is the tiny Chichuahua; but even when they do bite, they don't have the ability to do the kind of damage that a bulldog breed can do.
Also, dogs that are perfectly friendly when the owners are home, may be a very different dog when the owner is gone and the dog is left "on guard" of the home.
I must admit the small dog being allowed to behave badly because they cannot do so much damage is a real bug bear of mine. I have kept Rottweilers and GSD in the past and they were of course properly socialize and trained in basic behaviours (the UK kennel club does a good citizen dog scheme to try and encourage every dog owner to do this) so they walked to heel, sat at curbs or if I stopped for some other reason, did not respond to other dogs on the lead, came back off the lead etc. I would run into people with smaller dogs that jumped up, barked, were all over the place on the lead and generally uncontrolled and yet people thought that was funny and cute. If one of my bigger dogs behaved like that it would have been reported as dangerous - in fact I would get people criticizing me for having a dangerous breed while their own little monster was threatening to bite (on 2 occasions other dogs did attack the rottie - she would not start aggression but it only took her to growl and the other animal backed off fast - and I got yelled at for having a dangerous dog)
As far as I am concerned it does not matter whether the dog is too small to do "real damage" (and a chihuahua can blind a child and leave them scarred for life) they should be properly socialize and have basic training.
Up until the last few years, I mostly lived out in the country, and I have always had large dogs, too. When you live outside of town where there are coyotes and other predators around, it is always a good thing to have at least one large dog around, and we usually had several.
Great Danes were one of my favorites, but I have also had Boxers and Rotties, as well as Bruno, my beloved Gladiator Doberman.
The big dogs were always well-behaved, and gentle with anyone who came to our house. They loved following along when we went for horseback rides.
We had a huge Great Dane named Mr. Spock (pointed ears), and he and our pastor were great friends because we kept Pastor Reed's mule at our place and he was out there a lot to work with Jerry, the mule.
One weekend, we had to be gone and Pastor Reed was watching the house and animals for us. When we got home, we were amazed to find the front door standing wide open. Apparently, one of us had not pulled it tghtly shut, and Spock had gone inside to guard the house, and he would not let our pastor come up on the porch to close the door.
So, even though Spock knew and loved our pastor; when we were gone, he took his guard dog duty seriously.
Well, there are various reasons dogs exhibit violent behavior.
Bloodlines do play a major role in your pet's temperaments. If it's immediate ancestors had an aggressive nature, chances are your dog will, too.
An equal share of it also depends on the general way you behave towards it. Harsh disciplinary methods, extreme restriction and such have already proven to grow violent tendencies in a dog.
Much of it has to do with the environment it is brought up in, but dogs are more instinctual than people generally give them credit for. In a threatened situation, the behavioral lines blur and it becomes difficult to predict what the pet might do.
Except as a child, I've never had a dog and, even then, they were family dogs and not my own. However, I have been around a lot of dogs and like them well enough. Statistically, I don't doubt that pit bulls are involved in more aggressive acts than many other types of dogs, but it doesn't necessarily imply that pit bulls are all that more vicious. Much of this might be because people who want their dog to be mean and vicious are likely to choose a pit bull, as HappyFlowerLady suggests. Raised gently, pit bulls are gentle. Raised to be mean, they are quite capable of being mean. If people who wanted vicious dogs were to choose poodles, we'd probably be banning poodles.
12-12-2014, 04:58 AM, (This post was last modified: 12-12-2014, 05:00 AM by Happyflowerlady.)
Oh, Kfander ! I can't believe that you said such a thing ! (chuckling to myself at the thought of Poodles being banned) Poor little Chipper would be scarred for life if he heard such a thing.
He actually DOES bark when he thinks we have an intruder, but I am positive that he is hollering (in doggie language) for Miss Tootsie to go and get the tresspasser.
Sometimes, he wants me to go and solve the problem; but he is always thankful when either Tootsie or Bobby check things out and protect us.
Now, Tootsie, on the other hand, has designated herself as Chipper's Protector. When he has to go outside at night, she escorts him out to do his chores, while making sure that there are no marauding opossums in the area.
Maybe they would have to ban the full-sized Poodles; but even they just don't have that same "look" as a pittbull does, with all of that fluff and little bows on the ears.
Naw, I just can't see that happening......
The problem I have when people talk about aggression and danger from dogs is the statistics are so badly skewed by peoples influence. There have been studies done looking at the rate of aggression bites without considering damage done and the breed most likely to bite for any reason is the Dachshund - with Chihuahuas and Cockers also high up. The thing is when these dogs bite while they can do damage they are unlikely to be fatal. Then when you look at fatalities associated with dogs you get St Bernards and Great Danes high up - they have a low bite frequency but a much bigger chance that if one of these attacks it will kill you simply because of its size.
When it comes to the top 3 on lists looking at fatalities you have GSD, Rottweiler, and Pit bull which at first glance suggests these are the dangerous out of control breeds but when you look closely at the figures you find the first 2 include the statistics from trained working dogs and those used specifically for protection work and pit bulls are of course used for illegal fighting and are forced into being more aggressive than they would otherwise be.
Cyber, I noticed the omisssion of the Doberman Pinscher on your list, although they are often trained as guard dogs, too. And maybe that is part of the issue, when they are used mainly as a trained guard dog, they would be a a facility where they are fenced in, and not a lot of burglers are going to try and get inside the fence when they see the Dobie in there; so overall, they don't bite or kill a lot of people.
One of my most favorite dogs was a Gladiator Doberman, and he had a definite difference in personality when he know that he was "on duty". If we had company, he just loved people, and would usually go and sit beside their leg, and lean into them with soulful eyes proclaiming how badly he wanted to be petted. Even people who were apprehensive about a Dobie usually could not resist that pleading look and snuggling dobie-body.
However, when he was outside and on patrol; if someone approached the gate, he was blasting towards them, fangs showing and snarling. He never hurt anyone, but he did scare a few people when he did that.
He had been a trained guard dog before I got him, and when I rescued him, he was starving, and chained up outside in the snow, mud and cold . I was a little concerned whether he would accept me or not with his background; but I just could not leave him to live in that condition, so I took him. I had Bruno for many years, and he was as wonderful of a dog as anyone could ever want.
(12-13-2014, 04:14 AM)Happyflowerlady Wrote: Cyber, I noticed the omisssion of the Doberman Pinscher on your list, although they are often trained as guard dogs, too. And maybe that is part of the issue, when they are used mainly as a trained guard dog, they would be a a facility where they are fenced in, and not a lot of burglers are going to try and get inside the fence when they see the Dobie in there; so overall, they don't bite or kill a lot of people.
One of my most favorite dogs was a Gladiator Doberman, and he had a definite difference in personality when he know that he was "on duty". If we had company, he just loved people, and would usually go and sit beside their leg, and lean into them with soulful eyes proclaiming how badly he wanted to be petted. Even people who were apprehensive about a Dobie usually could not resist that pleading look and snuggling dobie-body.
However, when he was outside and on patrol; if someone approached the gate, he was blasting towards them, fangs showing and snarling. He never hurt anyone, but he did scare a few people when he did that.
He had been a trained guard dog before I got him, and when I rescued him, he was starving, and chained up outside in the snow, mud and cold . I was a little concerned whether he would accept me or not with his background; but I just could not leave him to live in that condition, so I took him. I had Bruno for many years, and he was as wonderful of a dog as anyone could ever want.
I think it was just a case of Dobermans causing less deaths than the other 3 as to why they were not in the top 3. I think dobies are fantastic dogs and have had the privilege to know several. One was 4 year old entire male who was of course still convinced he was a puppy (they do take a while to mature lol) I was walking into town one day when he saw me and pulled his lead from his owners hand because he was distracted and was charging towards me full pelt - I knew he was not dangerous and was soppy as they come but it was at the time newspapers were ful of "devil dogs" stories and all the other shoppers thought I was going to be ripped limb from limp. It ended up with me sat on my bum being slobbered to death having just had to catch a full grown male dobie in mid-air. Of course he thought he was just being nice lol.
What an exciting experience, Cyber ! ! It sounds like that Dobie instantly liked you to break away from his owner and literally jump into your arms. It is a good thing that you realized that the Dobie meant you no harm.
I think if one came dashing at me that fast , I would certainly be questioning my evaluation of the dog's intentions.
Since you couldn't run; I guess catching the dog was about the only choice that you had left to do.
My next question is---- what did the poor (now not-distracted) dog owner say and do while all of this was happening ?
Did he think the dobie was after you, or did he know it was just being affectionate ?
Terrific story ! I have been visualiziing the whole thing while reading your post, Cyber, and I can just SEE that big Dobie vaulting into your arms while everyone looked on in horror expecting to see you torn to bits.
(12-17-2014, 10:01 AM)Happyflowerlady Wrote: What an exciting experience, Cyber ! ! It sounds like that Dobie instantly liked you to break away from his owner and literally jump into your arms. It is a good thing that you realized that the Dobie meant you no harm.
I think if one came dashing at me that fast , I would certainly be questioning my evaluation of the dog's intentions.
Since you couldn't run; I guess catching the dog was about the only choice that you had left to do.
My next question is---- what did the poor (now not-distracted) dog owner say and do while all of this was happening ?
Did he think the dobie was after you, or did he know it was just being affectionate ?
Terrific story ! I have been visualiziing the whole thing while reading your post, Cyber, and I can just SEE that big Dobie vaulting into your arms while everyone looked on in horror expecting to see you torn to bits.
I forgot to mention he was a friends dog who I knew really well and he was used to me playing with him on walks. I think he was bored with shopping and my friend talking to someone and saw me and thought it was play time. Of course his owner my friend knew he was just going to say hello - it was all the people who did not know us or the dog. Jake (the dog) was lovely and he was really just a huge puppy - I have known enough dobies to know this is fairly typical. I have no doubt if someone was a threat he would have taken them down and he was a big dog but with people in general he thought he was just a little bundle of cute.
Most people seem to think that was violent owner. The dog dose as same as its owner, but when it was threatened , all reactions are derived from their instincts.
